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Post by Chris Payne AKA (ziptie) on Mar 2, 2015 22:03:51 GMT
Guys we may want to rethink this,we had some of the best races and car counts when we ran GT cars,thats where Chris miller,will harris,james lawrence and myself found you guys and the draw was GT cars and good racing.i know iracing has a gt series but its not as much fun as we have,also we get to race the same guys each week and there is something to be said for that…just like a real series we would see the same guys week after week.
we should have a mix of usa tracks and euro tracks,yes the cars are not exactly the same but its working for iracing.
as we know the DP is the oldest on the block lets retire it and go back to what we all like….
we also would pick up more guys for the series.make it simple.
thanks Just my RANT...
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F0NZ
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Post by F0NZ on Mar 2, 2015 23:09:14 GMT
Guys we may want to rethink this,we had some of the best races and car counts when we ran GT cars,thats where Chris miller,will harris,james lawrence and myself found you guys and the draw was GT cars and good racing.i know iracing has a gt series but its not as much fun as we have,also we get to race the same guys each week and there is something to be said for that…just like a real series we would see the same guys week after week. we should have a mix of usa tracks and euro tracks,yes the cars are not exactly the same but its working for iracing. as we know the DP is the oldest on the block lets retire it and go back to what we all like…. we also would pick up more guys for the series.make it simple. thanks Just my RANT... +1
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Post by miller1533 on Mar 3, 2015 0:55:38 GMT
The GT cars is where the crowd was drawn in, I believe there's fun in this car probably more so than any other due to the driveability. I think those cars are what brings more interest than any other. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by Greg on Mar 3, 2015 1:23:30 GMT
GT3 + Ruf Cup + Mustang + MX5, something similar to the N24 race or Bathurst 12 hrs. That would definitely fit the bill as a sports car series.
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Post by Paul D on Mar 3, 2015 4:53:12 GMT
I agree that the GT cars would probably bring in more people. But there is definitely something to say about how fun and racy the DP is. I had no clue this car was as fun as it is until driving this season.
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Post by Eduardo Lorente on Mar 3, 2015 11:40:13 GMT
I'm open to the switch (I think I may have accidentally opened the door to it in my last post), I know there are a few guys that felt strongly about the DP who may not have had a chance to post yet. In the meantime feel free to voice your thoughts here.
Re track decisions - I'll make a decision to keep us on track (no pun intended). I've gotten your requests though for more of a balance between American and Int'l tracks.
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F0NZ
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Post by F0NZ on Mar 3, 2015 13:43:53 GMT
...there is definitely something to say about how fun and racy the DP is...this car was...fun...
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F0NZ
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Post by F0NZ on Mar 4, 2015 3:02:02 GMT
I guess I should quantify my previous post with some stats:
- Race 1 - Sonoma: 11 out of 17 drivers finished at least a lap down; 2nd place finished 7 seconds behind the leader while 3rd place finished over 30 seconds behind first place.
- Race 2 - Daytona: 14 out of 18 drivers finished over a lap down; 2nd place finished 13 seconds behind the leader while 3rd place finished over 45 seconds behind first place.
- Race 3 - Spa: Slightly better results than race 1 and 2, only 11 out of 21 drivers finished at least a lap down, 2nd place finished 11 seconds behind 1st, with 3rd place finishing 23 seconds back.
- Race 4 - Road America: Still, 50% of drivers finished at least a lap down, with the gap between 1st and second hanging steady at 7 seconds and 24 seconds over 3rd.
In every single race this season more than half the field finished more than a lap down on the leader, and with few exceptions was there any close racing for more than a few laps.
I define fun by close racing, lots of passing, and the tension of being in a competition for position, not by lapping around for an hour-and-a-half.
In short, the DP, in my opinion, is not a fun car; it may be fun to drive, but not really fun to race.
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Post by Paul D on Mar 4, 2015 5:40:16 GMT
I thought the results were pretty normal for what we were seeing back at NAGP IMO.
At our peak in season 4 running GT3 cars, for the first two races of 35 and 36 cars respectively, only the top 5 finished on the lead lap. Only the last three races bucked the trend of the season by having less than half of the field a lap down from the leader. And one of those was very close to 50%.
In season 5 we had similar car counts to now, and saw relatively similar results (referring only to lap down car count).
I would support whatever we decide to do. Looking forward to next season regardless of what I'll be driving!
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Post by Troy Eddy, aka Jarhead on Mar 4, 2015 13:00:08 GMT
Even though I didn't race in season one, I would still like to give some input.
If you guys want some good close racing, you need to start sharing setups and setup knowledge. The main reason I didn't race this season is that it is almost impossible to find a good recent setup for the DP since hardly anyone is running it anymore.
You want to grow the series, help the slower drivers get up to speed. It is no fun running a 90 minute time trial with an occasional blue flag letting you know to move over for the aliens.
So please join some practice sessions, share some setups, watch the slower drivers and give some advice. And if you are a slower driver, join a practice session and watch the faster drivers. See where they brake for corners, watch what lines they take.
In summary, there needs to be some cooperation to grow the series. I see a lot of arguing about what car to use, but it really comes down to getting everyone up to speed no matter what car is used. Work together. Sharing is Caring (Barney taught me that when my daughter was 3).
There is a garage section in this forum, use it please. Most weeks it is just Eduardo sharing some old setups he found on the iRacing forums.
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Post by Eduardo Lorente on Mar 5, 2015 16:21:57 GMT
+1,000,000 Troy I think the challenge for us is how to convert guys that drop in for the races into active members on the forums -- you pretty much summed up the the risk/challenge with growing the league. As Paul said the 35 car field we had at one time at NAGP was great, but in the end, we really just had the same ~15 or so "core" drivers. So when the "next" big thing came out, we lost those ~20 drivers.
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Post by Joe on Mar 5, 2015 19:21:29 GMT
The 20-car plateau is a problem that has plagued iRacing private league owners for some time. Even money leagues are affected, as bounty hunters tend to join several leagues, then concentrate on the one that they have a shot at, thus your league bleeds backmarkers. Backmarkers are the single most precious commodity on iRacing. The drummers in a world of lead guitarists. Finding a way to keep them is akin to discovering cold fusion.
Broadcasts seem to be the best way to, if not generate real loyalty, at least create a close facsimile. People like to see themselves on the tv, even if they are sucking it up. Of course, that is expensive. I would also argue that as more and more people are streaming and broadcasting and uploading in-car views, that broadcasting is getting lost in a sea of video. Unless you are one of the biggies, which will cost you a lot.
The single, most effective way I have ever found to grow solid membership, and it was what I used to seed this very league, is to host races that aren't advertised as recruiting races. Simply host a race. Give no indication that it is anything special. Save the replay and then watch each driver as they naturally drive (I recommend 8x speed) and when you find a driver that you think would be a great fit for the league, send them a pm telling them just that. Something like- Hi, I am Joe and I run the GRAsim league. You joined a race I hosted recently, and I would love it if you would consider joining our league. Etc, etc....
I found most people were pretty happy to be told they were good drivers, and having a league reach out to them impressed them. Once they visited the forums, they were caught.
A lot of leagues try money or vanity (broadcasts) to lure drivers into membership, but in a situation in which drivers are in the land of milk and honey, a league's only real chance is to appeal to a driver's sense of belonging.
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F0NZ
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Post by F0NZ on Mar 5, 2015 21:04:55 GMT
...the 35 car field we had at one time at NAGP was great, but in the end, we really just had the same ~15 or so "core" drivers. So when the "next" big thing came out, we lost those ~20 drivers. The key, it seems, is to concentrate on the core drivers you do have and worry about recruitment as a secondary. Instead of gearing the league for potential drivers that may or may not stick around, tailor the league to the guys you do have racing in it. Not saying that isn't happening. If you guys want some good close racing, you need to start sharing setups and setup knowledge. The main reason I didn't race this season is that it is almost impossible to find a good recent setup for the DP since hardly anyone is running it anymore. You want to grow the series, help the slower drivers get up to speed. It is no fun running a 90 minute time trial with an occasional blue flag letting you know to move over for the aliens. So please join some practice sessions, share some setups, watch the slower drivers and give some advice. And if you are a slower driver, join a practice session and watch the faster drivers. See where they brake for corners, watch what lines they take. The truth of the matter is that set-up really isn't all that important. I'm not the fastest guy out there but am usually running somewhere in the top 5, and I normally just run the baseline set-up. On the DP, I just ran the medium downforce set-up provided by iRacing, even at Daytona , with slight changes to tire pressure. What is true is that everyone wants to run fast cars which are much harder to drive than slower cars. However, it is these slower cars that provide the closest racing. The Miata, the Jetta, the Skippy, etc. have limited set-up options and are much easier to drive than the Riley, HPD, GT3, etc. And to boot, are fun as hell to race because everyone is closer together as far as lap times go. Yet, the slower cars, for whatever reason, never ever enter the discussion. It is no fun running a 90 minute time trial with an occasional blue flag letting you know to move over for the aliens. I am in complete agreement.
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Post by Eduardo Lorente on Mar 6, 2015 1:51:52 GMT
Really great points Troy, Joe and Alfonso (now that I know your "secret" Fonz - I'll need to try some more default setups ) I completely agree with Joe regarding the "drummer" metaphor. This is the third league that I've served as an admin with (R2P and NAGP before this) and the one thing they all have in common is the "bell curve". There will always be the fast guys in the front of the pack, the guys in the middle who make the majority, and then the scrubs who just started racing. My way of dealing with this is by trying to keep as many people happy as possible (i.e the "big tent" approach). I'll make mistakes from time to time (hehe anyone remember our first multi-car season at the NAGP?), but so far we've managed to keep the "core" group together in spite of me Joe's point about the "20" barrier is perfect too - it's the other commonality among the three leagues I've been in. Maybe this is where leagues that require a fee have an advantage over racing club's like ours - once you have some money at risk (i.e. the fee you paid to race) you're compelling yourself to race because you don't want to "waste your money" by not showing up to the event. So clubs like ours have to work harder to keep the community together. As for the quality of the racing Troy and Alfonso mentioned - as the admin I can only modify the environment, but ultimately it's up to the drivers to decide how good or bad the racing experience will be. So for example, I can pick tracks so that drivers regularly see other cars (as Troy said, nothing's worse than that lonely feeling you're just doing time trials), but that doesn't impact the "fun-factor" as much as guys chatting it up during the pre and post race. For example, we had great post race chats at NAGP on the chat server - I wish we could replicate that here whether it's on the iRacing radio or our own TeamSpeak. In the end though, the best advice I got was from the guys at Racespot.tv. When I asked them about how we might continue to grow our league, they said that even more important than prizes or broadcasts, it was an engaged and active driver group. Such as guys posting on the iRacing forums in our promos ("had fun - this great!" for example), or posting on social media or in our GRAsim forums (nothing's worse than a dead, quiet public community). And finally, they said the #1 best way to grow our league is by having our drivers invite their friends. No duh, right? I mean, you already like you're friends -- so of course you're going to have a good experience at the race since your friends are already there!
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Post by Troy Eddy, aka Jarhead on Mar 6, 2015 12:08:25 GMT
What is true is that everyone wants to run fast cars which are much harder to drive than slower cars. However, it is these slower cars that provide the closest racing. The Miata, the Jetta, the Skippy, etc. have limited set-up options and are much easier to drive than the Riley, HPD, GT3, etc. And to boot, are fun as hell to race because everyone is closer together as far as lap times go. Yet, the slower cars, for whatever reason, never ever enter the discussion. Completely agree with you here. I have had more fun in the Advanced Mazda Cup series than any other official series on iRacing. Some really great close racing. I also still race the Skippy and SRF occasionally. Both are great cars for some good close racing also. Why not go back to the basics and race some of these cars? Start out slow and work our way up to the faster cars. I really believe we could end up with a lot closer racing in the faster cars if everyone progressed together starting with the slower cars.
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