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Post by duljon on Dec 19, 2014 12:02:41 GMT
In multi-class racing it is not just lap times the deal. The cars behavior need to be analised. The speed in the turns and straights need to be counted. Example: If we have a very experienced drivers, DP and GT3 can be done. DP is faster in straights and good in turns, but the GT3 cars have formula 1 brakes here in iRacing. That means the overtakes will need to be done on straights. The DP/GT3 can also be good for attract people, because the "better choice" imo (DP + Ruf C-Spec) have not a huge number of drivers racing with it. The main problem in DP/GT3 choice would be the slower DP's fighting the entirely race against the fastest GT3. Some ways to fix that: 1) put the fastest drivers in the DP. But who can point the finger and say "you are slower!"? That would not be a good way! And if a very good driver want to race in the gt3? We will lose this guy because of a rule like that? And if a very manner guy want to join the league running the DP, but he is not that fast? I want this guy here also. 2) Fixed setups. With fixed setup we can slowdown even more GT3 cars on the straights and put some kind of "understeer" in turns. But we have 4 GT3 cars and would be impossible to make an even setup for each one of this cars for every track. It also would do not attract many fast drivers, but can attract a bunch of guys without 2~3 hours/week to spend doing setups. In the old NAGP days we ran DP + Ford GT2 (in that "era" this car have a very similar pace with the GT3 we have now) and I just had problems with guys in my class (Ford GT) while in traffic. However, my vote is for DP + Ruf C-Spec or DP + GT3. Now, about the schedule. Finally! Race, break, race, break...! Saturday nights are tough and now we have a chance to be in! Every Saturday = divorce. Some Saturday = sleep in the couch sometimes, but it is doable. With this pattern we can attract European guys also. Thanks, Ed! Just some toughs about it: January 10th = Masters of Endurance Spa 24h race. February 21st = Masters of Endurance Bathurst 6h race. (this is doable, just the tiredness would be a concern) Of course we can not watch every league of the world to make our schedule, but is fact that some of the best teams of the world are racing there. These guys will race here? I don't know, but for sure they will not if it is in the same day of the MoE's races. Other series like NEO Endurance and NES Support Series are racing in different days, also. I'm not saying we can not run at same days. I'm just putting this here for information.
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F0NZ
New Member
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Post by F0NZ on Dec 19, 2014 13:13:34 GMT
Some ways to fix that: 1) put the fastest drivers in the DP. But who can point the finger and say "you are slower!"? That would not be a good way! And if a very good driver want to race in the gt3? We will lose this guy because of a rule like that? And if a very manner guy want to join the league running the DP, but he is not that fast? I want this guy here also. 2) Fixed setups. With fixed setup we can slowdown even more GT3 cars on the straights and put some kind of "understeer" in turns. But we have 4 GT3 cars and would be impossible to make an even setup for each one of this cars for every track. It also would do not attract many fast drivers, but can attract a bunch of guys without 2~3 hours/week to spend doing setups. With all due respect, but both of those ideas are non-starters as far as my participation in the league. With the tons of leagues running, you want to attract new talent by tying up their hands right from the get go?
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Post by duljon on Dec 19, 2014 13:39:17 GMT
We both agree with that, F0NZ. I just throw the ideas, but said it would not work lol.
We need to find a way, with open setups and with everyone racing where they want, to have a nice multi-class environment. If we can't, we should go single class imo.
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Post by Eduardo Lorente on Dec 19, 2014 14:03:31 GMT
Thanks for the opinions and ideas guys (and the respectful debate too). There's two issues here that I'll try to add my opinion to also:
Re Multi-Class: The members that can remember my early days running the NAGP series know that I'm a huge fan of multi-class racing. I like the idea of satisfying more drivers by having a diversity of cars - as we can see from this survey, not everyone loves the GT3, DP's or Open Wheel cars equally. The challenge of course is (a) getting the drivers so that it doesn't feel "lonely" out there; and (b) putting the right drivers in the right cars. I have to agree with Alfonso though, that I'm not a fan of forcing someone to drive a car they don't want to be in even if it makes perfect sense for the fast guys to be in car "A" and slow guys to be in car "B".
After checking the survey results last night, I was already thinking we might try to do a fun-run next weekend and test out a multi-class event to see who comes out and how many drivers we get. Stay tuned for more details on this ...
Re Scheduling: My thoughts exactly Duljon. Like many of you, I've got work and family commitments, so weekly races would make this impossible. The challenge of course is scheduling with other leagues - for example no one wants to schedule races on Valentine's Day (Saturday, Feb. 14), so it's no surprise, all of our schedules start to look the same eventually. I'll do my best, and maybe this is where the "cup" concept we've floated will work best, but I can't promise we'll have a uniquely different calendar to any of the other leagues you mentioned.
Finally, I wanted to let you guys know that I'm going to pull together a few drivers to form a "Competition Committee". Basically it's an informal group of drivers to advise me on the running of the Saturday championship. It helps me stay in touch with you guys and steer the league in the right direction without constantly having to post surveys. At the NAGP, we also relied on this group to help review on-track incidents and interpret the racing rules we operate under. I'll try to pick from a broad base of advanced and intermediate drivers, as well as former NAGP guys and long-time GRA members too - I'll send out some invites in the next couple days or so. If you don't hear from me on this, please don't be offended - my goal is to have a revolving membership so hopefully everyone will get an opportunity to serve if they're interested.
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Post by Paul D on Dec 20, 2014 2:53:40 GMT
Would DW12 and DP multiclass be too crazy for people?
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mario
Junior Member
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Post by mario on Dec 20, 2014 11:15:02 GMT
Would DW12 and DP multiclass be too crazy for people? I came up with the same question while reading the last few posts. DP and an open wheel maybe ?
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Post by Eduardo Lorente on Dec 20, 2014 17:06:56 GMT
Let me start off my post by suggesting it might be a little premature to talk about multi-class with around 22 cars (I'll admit I'm guilty of fueling the discussion). I'm happy to check this out with a fun run next weekend, but I want to set the expectations in the right place that we're probably one or two season away from this. The DW12 isn't a bad idea, although I have to admit my preference would be for an LMP2<-DP->GT pairing (sorry, I admit I'm a "purist"). Also, if we're looking to attract new drivers, both the Ruf CSpec and LMP2 had more drivers on average than the DW12 did during S4 2014: Car Type
| Avg. Attendance
| DW12 - Road
| 96 | Ruf Cup (CSpec)
| 486 | LMP2 | 196 |
Source: www.iracer.info/2014S4/Can I suggest an equally "weird" idea? How about if we create a "GT-Daytona" category by slowing down the GT3 cars with ballast? This morning I ran a few laps in the GT3 Z4 with some ballast to see how much impact adding 250kg (550 lbs) would have on lap times. In the Z4, at Road Atlanta I was about 2 seconds per lap slower with the extra ballast. Basically, the added ballast made it harder to get up to "speed" and required longer braking distances too. Note, that I had to alter the "spring perch" to get the car back into a legal ride height (i.e. lower the perch to increase the height). What are your thoughts?
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Post by duckfoot on Dec 20, 2014 18:58:51 GMT
I like the idea of ballast. If it helps get the cars more suitable for big fields, then I'm all for it. Just as long as I know to plan ahead for the new feel, but it shouldn't be that much different.
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Post by Joe on Dec 20, 2014 19:41:02 GMT
We had a conversation a long, long time ago about ballast here, although it was with the intention of trying to balance cars out. Granted, this was all done as a thought experiment, but as the idea of ballast progressed we started to wonder how that would affect recruiting.
The argument goes as follows- adding 250kg to a car will greatly alter the handling and breaking of a car (which is the intention), but are drivers going to want that slower, more sluggish car, or are they going to want to race that car at full speed in another league?
Again, we were looking to bring together and not push apart, but I think the question is still valid. The cars would be better for multi-class, but will GT3 drivers drive a heavier, slower car in our series?
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Post by Eduardo Lorente on Dec 21, 2014 18:21:23 GMT
Hi Joe - you made some very good points. I guess the risk is that a new member will login to the server to drive a Z4 (or whatever) and be confused by the car such that they give up and don't come back. Another issue is if this only slows the cars down ~2 seconds over a 80 second lap (at Road Atlanta), is it worth the trouble?
Using Paul's lap data from earlier in the conversation:
2014 S4 World Sportscar Series
Daytona Prototype best Q time: 1:15:925
2014 S4 GT3 Challenge
GT3 (not sure which car) best Q time: 1:17:472
That would mean the "GT3-D" record would be 1:19.5, barely 4 seconds per lap slower than the DP. That's probably not enough unless we adopt some sort of 105% rule (i.e. you must lap within 105% of leader to drive a DP) which could be problematic for various reasons. Does anyone have other thoughts or ideas?
In the meantime, I'm pulling together our "competition committee/drivers association", working on graphics, schedules, and a few other projects I'll start to release shortly. Stay tuned for more updates!
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Post by Glenn Sidman on Dec 21, 2014 22:24:33 GMT
It sounds like everyone is onboard to give multi-class a shot?. While it does have it's challenges, overall I think multi-class would make the racing more interesting over an entire season if we can maintain car counts. Here are some of my thoughts, and admittedly some are just off the top of my head today and I may change my mind tomorrow 1. I am also a "purist" (well put Ed). Multiclass just feels better to me if it resembles real world. I can't get past that and I suspect a lot of others would feel the same. 2. We need to test DP and GT3. I suspect it's not going to work, but it would be the best choice based on the survey. The variety in GT3 would add a lot of flavor and those who don't like the GT3 (me) would be happy with the DP. 3. If DP/GT3 does not work. How about LMP2/GT3. We know it's been tested with great success. In fact, I wonder if the people who voted for DP would prefer DP single class, or LMP2/GT3? I suspect the latter. DP's running by them selves somehow doesn't feel right. 4. If we go multi-class we should be prepared to drop a class if we have fewer than x numbers of cars for x number of races. Or at least allow those drivers to carry some percentage of their points over to the other class. 5. I am not a fan of dividing drivers by iRating, Class, or anything like that. The one exception would be a case where, say a DP or LMP2 driver, was consistently slower than most of the GT3 field. I would support a rule to change the driver's class if his/her performance is hindering the "slower" class.
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F0NZ
New Member
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Post by F0NZ on Dec 21, 2014 22:40:13 GMT
Does anyone have other thoughts or ideas? For multi-class, given that the DP is leading the poles, I propose the Pontiac challenge: the Riley and the Solstice (or the Jetta, or Miata).
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Post by Paul D on Dec 21, 2014 22:49:31 GMT
I think Ed's comment a few posts up was on target. That with only 22 drivers that participated in the poll, I think multiclass would not be as good as a single class.
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Post by duckfoot on Dec 21, 2014 23:02:24 GMT
I think Ed's comment a few posts up was on target. That with only 22 drivers that participated in the poll, I think multiclass would not be as good as a single class. Again, that's only 22 drivers that are pooling from our own Supercar series. I'm sure we'd get more interest once it gets advertised across the service.
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Post by Eduardo Lorente on Dec 22, 2014 0:46:56 GMT
We've got one more weekend we can squeeze a fun-run into ... I'm happy to give it a shot just to see what/who comes out - it's our last chance to make any additions before the championship starts in January.
In the meantime, I'll post a draft schedule in the next day or so, so you can all review and add your comments. I'm also working on some graphics to start promoting the series.
Thanks guys for your input and participation!
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